DUST Search - Armor Tanks and dealing with them.

The Attorney General wrote:

Jason Pearson wrote:

Vickers S Grunt wrote:

hi jason quick question do u think militia av shout be able to hurt proto tanks ?

Are we talking Tanks that are out in the open, or tanks that aren't piloted by idiots?

A prototype AV should be able to kill a Proto Tank in a clip directly in the open, something around that.
A standard AV should be able to hurt a Proto Tank in a clip directly in the open, but probably not kill it in two clips.

I can take a full clip from either an Ishukone Assault or proto swarms in my Madrugar if my reps are ready and I have full health.

The swarms are hit and miss though, depends on how close they are and if there is some sort of cover to at least eat a couple of the missiles. A full clip can drop me, but sometimes it doesn't.

So either proto tanks are not going to be much stronger than the ones we have now, which I am ok with, or the new vehicle balancing pass will make huge changes the lieks of which should have been discussed with the community but have not.


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Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2010	Posted - 2013.07.22 00:04:00 - [1] - Quote So it seems to me there is a lot of misunderstanding when Tankers are complaining about stuff, so much so that people with no investment into vehicles seem very confused and begin to *** at said tankers about Tanks being OP and what not. That said, people don't seem to understand how to approach vehicles, and should probably learn. I run both types of Tank (although I prefer Caldari overall) and I also run Prototype Forge Guns, I'd say I'm pretty good with them, find it quiet easy to take down other vehicles (Even Armor Tanks despite them being stronger against Forges) and I'm only running an Advanced Heavy with Militia modules. Enough about me, let's continue. - At this moment in time, Armor Tanks (Soma, Madrugar, Vayu) are quite powerful when it comes to fighting other tanks, their stronger against blasters whereas shield tanks get an extra 10% damage against them. But it's not this that makes them a lot stronger, nor is it the fact they get a lot more HP from Armor Plates, but the fact their Reppers pulse every second for 15 seconds rather than a pulse every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. Recently, this issue was reported to CCP and they've stated they're going to "fix" the issue. If you're new here, please read this bit, always assume the worst from CCP. They have two options when "fixing" this bug, either fix it so that the pulse is every 3 seconds as intended, or they change the description to match the way Reps work at the moment in time. Now, you're going to see a lot of threads pop up, some already have, claiming how OP Armor tanks are and how nerfing them will fix it, they are not OP nor will nerfing them (or "fixing" them) actually help in anyway, they will just make them very expensive coffins for players to get solo'd in by two AV grenades. At this moment in time, everyone has an AV weapon ( off Grenadiers, you're bad), mostly swarms and if you do not, you deserve to be slaughtered by that Militia Tank, I have all my SP in Vehicles and yet even I have a Prototype Forge. With Armor dominating shields, the best way to approach them is through the use of Swarms, Prototype swarms can deal well over 3000 HP per volley, you have 4 Volleys per clip, you can take on an Armor Tank, but you need to be smart. Being smart is the key here, just because it's a fire and forget weapon (which by the way, almost makes you guys as skill-less as Grenadiers, hell atleast they have to get close to their targets) does not mean you should not pay attention. If you're not going to use teamwork, and are going to solo a tank, atleast play it smart. Time your volleys, two Volleys to the Armor tank will have him popping all his modules and beginning to run, you need to reload and follow, chances are he'll be a little braver thinking you're dead or can't see him. Because you've reloaded and he's got to wait 30 seconds before activating his rep, you now have 30 seconds to fire four volleys, dealing around 12,000 Damage. - Now, that said, a lot of players don't seem to understand despite it being kind of obvious, but different weapons will do different amounts of damage depending on whether they're hitting Shields or Armor, teamwork can be very useful because of this (Just watch when someone figures out how to Hybrid successfully, you're going to cry hard and demand nerfs) Forge Guns, Blasters ,Railguns and Flux Grenades - Theres weapons do more damage to Shields than Armor, Armor takes 10% less damage which can be a big factor. The Flux can be great against stationary targets but as it does no damage to armor, you need to be packing additional weapons or have additional support. Also, an additional note, Plasma Cannons seem horrid, avoid them till they get a buff (-Love, the shield Tanker, seriously buff that **.) All Explosives, Swarms, Missiles, AV Grenades and Godlocks (Yes, Godlocks can damage tanks too.) - Any heavy based armor vehicle will usually be light on the shields, but it can mean the difference between life or death because of shields take 90% damage whereas armor takes around 130%, big jump, right? As you can see, taking on an Armor Tank with just a Forge Gun and some Flux Grenades might not be the best idea, but changing the forge to a Swarm Launcher? Well you've just got a terrifying combo.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2010	Posted - 2013.07.22 00:06:00 - [2] - Quote - Even at this moment in time, you can solo armor Tanks, you can easily solo shield Tanks, you just need to make sure you're thinking about it rather than randomly firing at things hoping to get a kill. With the upcoming fix, Armor Tanks will become easier than shield tanks (think about it, Shields take at max, 10% more damage from their primary deterrents, Armor take 30% more and the weapons can be fired and forgot about.) Tankers, you need teamwork to survive in this climate, I know many of you already do, and AVers I hope you understand that a lot of the time we're not "steamrolling" solo, but that we've got support, be it through Infantry or Logistical support. My tip, hunt the yellow cars of doom sitting behind the tank. AVers, you also need to utilize Teamwork, because a lot of posts seem to be a single AVer complaining about how hard it is to kill a tank. If you're being killed by Infantry everytime you approach a Tank, it's not because the tank was OP that you couldn't kill it, but it was because you approached him without Infantry yourself, suck it up, get some Infantry. Not just this, but working in tandem with an additional AVer means you will decimate an enemy Tank, hell, team up with a Friendly Rail Tank and coordinate, get the rail to push the enemy tanker back and go in for the kill. AVers, you can be very flexible, you have the ability to get on rooftops and attack vehicles without them realizing it, also if you have a good spot, use a breach forge, it's hilarious. (**** you not, I toyed with an Armor Tank the other day, Hit him once and his reps went on, waited for a bit and then double shot, booooom!) I hope some of this helped in anyways, especially the top part, I hope it helps understand what's going down at the moment and how it's very possible Armor Tankers can become incredibly easy to solo. Tanks do not need nerfing, they need an overhaul like every vehicle in the damn game, also PROTO VEHICLES CCP, GET THEM INTO THE GAME, WE DONT CARE IF THEY'RE PLACEHOLDERS, THEY'RE NEEDED FOR BALANCING YOU MUGS!
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2011	Posted - 2013.07.22 00:26:00 - [3] - Quote Also on the topic of Prototype Tanks, not many people seem to understand the reasoning for such a thing. You have the standard HAV and three known variations, Enforcer, Marauder and Black Ops. People assume these vehicles are the Prototype vehicles, but they are not. Think of a vehicle like a suit, We should have to advance in a particular path and then get the ability to unlock a variation of HAV, and then look to maxing it out. Right now, Prototype AV is the only real way to kill Standard Vehicles, but what if I told you it shouldn't be this way? What if, we had Standard, Advanced and Prototype tanks, but balanced it so Proto walked all over standard, but Proto vs Proto was a good balanced fight. Many people don't understand as they're looking at this issue as it is currently, take a step back and add the additional HAVs into the mix and then pair the AV up, ta-da.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2013	Posted - 2013.07.22 00:54:00 - [4] - Quote Really, none of the people posting about AV being UP or Tanks OP? Did I slam the lid on any of the trash ya'll were talking? Shame.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2018	Posted - 2013.07.22 01:30:00 - [5] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Esp the part about how.. if a tank is OP... its usually the infantry he's with that's doing all the work. Tanks are mainly a support/force multiplier. Don't get me wrong, a solo tank can devastate an unprepared enemy, but the moment teamwork comes into play, the tank will die unless he has teamwork. When I say teamwork though, I don't even mean coordinated on either side, four people could be firing AV, Tankers Infantry could just run into the AVers.. Now coordinated teamwork, that's OP.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2018	Posted - 2013.07.22 02:09:00 - [6] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Quote: OP POST +1, a very good and balanced view on the situation at hand. With one exception: that we would need proto tanks ASAP and they are expected to be superior, CCPs current plan (a good one) is to have current MADs and GLs the very defining tanks for all developement. And proto tanks would be specialized versions built on those. Specialized meaning while they excel on some one thing, they have serious weaknesses on some other areas. Nay, I wouldn't see it as expecting to be superior, just finely balanced, if we were to buff AV so that Standard AV can kill Standard Tank with Standard Modules if they persist and then mirror this with Advanced v Advanced and Proto v Proto, then I believe that would be good. I honestly feel having variants being the kind of proto is bad, What's the point in me leveling my Caldari HAV to 5 if I have only he Gunnlogi, and then have to unlock a further skill to gain access to another HAV? Mirror it similar to the way suits are, and it could be interesting, with the specializations being tilted massively in certain ways, such as Marauders being Tanky (never understood a damage output) with reduced damage output and speed, Enforcers being slow and weaker but higher damage output, Black Ops being E-War specific and then possibly another class being faster but weaker and less damage output. Then you'd have Standard HAVs going up to Prototype, then Standard Variants going up to Prototype, with their attributes being more skewed the higher up, so the higher meta a Marauder, the more overall eHP but less damage output and speed.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2027	Posted - 2013.07.22 14:01:00 - [7] - Quote Keeping this at the top.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2031	Posted - 2013.07.22 15:34:00 - [8] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Yoma Carrim wrote: Forge guns and Railguns do -10% to shields +10% to armor Will check, but I do more damage to Shields than Armor with a Forge, also Shield Tanks die faster to rails than Armor does also. Still don't understand why they just don't do 100% to each, I thought that's what a Hybrid was.. Point still the same, Armor dies quicker to Explosives than Rails and Forges :D
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2031	Posted - 2013.07.22 15:55:00 - [9] - Quote Cy Clone1 wrote: Av is mainly a problem when they decide to place themselves on unreachable towers. This is extremely irritating because tanks cant hit them, and dropships are put down almost instantly. So what the hell are vehicles supposed to do redline? Proto av decimate standard vehicles, as it should, but the abilities of av grenades in combination with already powerful av weaponry makes it unbearable. Sometimes you've got to know when to give it up, if a game isn't working you need to tactically withdraw and fight on foot. An AVer who takes their time to get into a secure position should be rewarded for doing so, because they're not going to get a lot of points if they're pure AV. Also with the raised ceiling for Dropships, if you can get far enough away, its very possible to get above the AVers without them hitting you and landing/bailing out over them, where there's a will, there's a way.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2035	Posted - 2013.07.22 16:43:00 - [10] - Quote Vickers S Grunt wrote: hi jason quick question do u think militia av shout be able to hurt proto tanks ? Are we talking Tanks that are out in the open, or tanks that aren't piloted by idiots? A prototype AV should be able to kill a Proto Tank in a clip directly in the open, something around that. A standard AV should be able to hurt a Proto Tank in a clip directly in the open, but probably not kill it in two clips.

Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2035	Posted - 2013.07.22 16:54:00 - [11] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: Vickers S Grunt wrote: hi jason quick question do u think militia av shout be able to hurt proto tanks ? Are we talking Tanks that are out in the open, or tanks that aren't piloted by idiots? A prototype AV should be able to kill a Proto Tank in a clip directly in the open, something around that. A standard AV should be able to hurt a Proto Tank in a clip directly in the open, but probably not kill it in two clips. I can take a full clip from either an Ishukone Assault or proto swarms in my Madrugar if my reps are ready and I have full health. The swarms are hit and miss though, depends on how close they are and if there is some sort of cover to at least eat a couple of the missiles. A full clip can drop me, but sometimes it doesn't. So either proto tanks are not going to be much stronger than the ones we have now, which I am ok with, or the new vehicle balancing pass will make huge changes the lieks of which should have been discussed with the community but have not. I think you'd see a change, but only with numbers. I mean, let's say the Standard AV gets a buff (everything moves up accordingly) and can fight a Standard fitted standard tank just a little worse than what the current proto does. Then add the Advanced Tank and increase its HP and such so that the Advanced AV can do the same as the Standard v Standard, and then do the same with Proto.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2035	Posted - 2013.07.22 17:00:00 - [12] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: I think you'd see a change, but only with numbers. I mean, let's say the Standard AV gets a buff (everything moves up accordingly) and can fight a Standard fitted standard tank just a little worse than what the current proto does. Then add the Advanced Tank and increase its HP and such so that the Advanced AV can do the same as the Standard v Standard, and then do the same with Proto. That would be interesting, although until there is a matchmaking system that works, it would be awkward trying to keep proto stompers out of pubs. FFS, so many problems have other problems that need to be addressed in this game, it is getting annoying having to try and theory a way out of the hole CCP has dug for everyone. I know it's not a good way, but limiting it by cost may be a helpful factor, I mean if proto tanks ended up costing like 5mil for the Hull alone, and AV weapons ended up costing 10% of that (500k a weapon), I could see that as a helpful limiting factor, you'd really only want to deploy these things in a PC match,. That said, I'd probably be one of the people to use a Proto tank in a Pubmatch simply because AV would be expensive too field aswell.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2035	Posted - 2013.07.22 17:10:00 - [13] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: I know it's not a good way, but limiting it by cost may be a helpful factor, I mean if proto tanks ended up costing like 5mil for the Hull alone, and AV weapons ended up costing 10% of that (500k a weapon), I could see that as a helpful limiting factor, you'd really only want to deploy these things in a PC match,. That said, I'd probably be one of the people to use a Proto tank in a Pubmatch simply because AV would be expensive too field aswell. I am a huge opponent of trying to limit or balance by ISK. I have almost a billion ISK personally, and much much more if they ever open up the Eve link. There would be zero penalty to me rolling out a proto tank every match, all day long. Other than the shame at loosing one in a pub match. Damn o.O I thought AVers didn't make money? :P I'm floating on about 5 Million ISK, probably less. But yeah, I don't think pure balance off of this, but it may be helpful in making them very pricey things, it wouldn't limit their use but would result in a nice payout for Pub players if they killed it, and would just be a factor in the balancing of it.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2053	Posted - 2013.07.23 17:51:00 - [14] - Quote Up you go.